potty/toilet training [Archive]

pimmy

08-27-2001, 08:05 PM

Hi, my name is Jodi and I'm new to this list. I know the potty/toilet training issue has been discussed before. A brief over view of my situation. I have a 4 year old girl, diagnosed PDD-NOS, or mildly autistic, whatever you prefer, some sensory issues, getting better with those, verbal, getting better everyday with that too. Her teacher and I have been trying to train her for the last 6 months, still to no avail. Her teacher has even come to my house, hoping to catch that first urine of the day, (she can stay dry about 50/50) at night when she wakes up. In school, they have tried to time her every 30 minutes, knows that she'll get that reinforcer when she goes. Will ask to use the toilet/potty, will pull undies/pants down, will sit, will flush, will wash hands, all the steps, but still no "pee". We have tried videos, using a doll for a visual, cutting holes in her diapers, put cardboard on top of the toilet(at first with her diaper on), to get used to sitting. Her marathon for holding her urine was about the 14 hour mark, so keeping her in the bathroom all day won't work either, as some people have suggested to me. She is a very stubborn little girl(kind of like her mom). I know once she goes, she'll get it. She has been off from school now for the last 2 weeks, she'll start again next week, we are hoping that something will "click" for her to "go" when she gets back to that routine. I don't think I'm forgetting anything that we've tried. Any information from some veterans would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance....Jodi, mom of Sarah, a great lttle gal, with a great personality to boot

VMcCormac

08-29-2001, 08:40 AM

Hi Jodi...one of my favorite topics -- I have boys so my scenario is different -- I don't know if my son has made it 14 hours but he was close -- (he is 5). We had intensive two day toilet training assistance from the local Center for Autism and Related Disabilities; We basically did mass trials-- dry pants, good job, then the potty steps over and over and over and over (but with no PEEEEEEE!) but, hey -- go with the success -- he also was dry 47 times. I truly think the board maker pictures of the segmented process, step by step, did help him visualize the desired activity -- and we even moved on now to #2 with success -- only parents with children with autism can appreciate the humor and the insanity of those pictures posted in your bathroom, dining room, kitchen -- but, we have learned, haven't we, to laugh and go on. My boys are absolutely adorable, precious and smarter than your average bear. My joy -- My challenge --

JESSESMOM

08-29-2001, 06:22 PM

Hi! I am definitely no expert on the subject but with my five year old, Jesse, we just kept putting him on the toilet in the morning, and after each meal and he finally began to use it for number two approximately 7 months ago but was still only using his pull-ups for number one. Finally about three months ago, while sitting for a number two, he began to urinate and I was able to stand him up and miraculously, he con't to urinate into the toilet and I made a big commotion of praising him all over the place. He then began to "get it". Now he is completely toilet trained but it was a long time in coming and then he just "got it"! Jesse is autistic and doesn't speak yet and he could do it. I KNOW your daughter is close. Hang in there! You know they don't mimic, they just do it! Love, Sari (Jessesmom)

pimmy

08-29-2001, 06:27 PM

VMC- Yes, truly I have a good laugh at pictures in my house, almost everywhere. Well, Sarah's teacher came over today, stayed the entire day until----tada---peeing, not necessarily, exactly on the potty, but near it, on it, around it. You name it. She held on for her record of 26 hours without going, so I guess it had to come out sometime. With a new reinforcer this time. Yes, a chart with the steps, maybe that helped. Right now I'm not going to put that diaper on, unless she gets too backed up with #2. Until tomorrow (Thurs.), thanks for your post...wish me luck...If it wasn't for her teacher coming over I think I would have given in to Sarah when she was crying for her diaper to be put on. I think Sarah has a stronger will than me, and I'm very stubborn...enough rambling...more tomorrow....thanks again Jodi

nandee

08-29-2001, 07:52 PM

My experience with potty training Corrina was about eight months of taking her to the bathroom very often, but her bladder control also went into 10-12 hours or so too. But one day she caught on to what I wanted and that was it. No more wet or dirty panties, Day or night. I learned a long time ago to use cloth underpants when potty training. The diapers and pull up don't have the uncomfortable feel when wet. NancyE

pimmy

09-02-2001, 11:29 AM

Well, for those of you who gave advice, well it's day 4 without diapers day and night. Sarah (4yrs), is FINALLY getting it, sometimes with some prompting, and sometimes sitting on that potty/toilet for up to an hour, but she knows what it's for and what she has to do on it. Has been going on it for the last couple of days, day and night, (with a few accidents in between, when we run to the toilet, as she say's "I have to make pee-pee" she waits a little too long), but I love when she says," Mom, I made pee-pee on the potty", that to me is music to my hears...and she claps to herself, knowingly that she has done a great thing. Now, hopefully when she starts school on Wed. Sept. 5, she can cross that over into school, and not hold it all day, again. Thanks for listening...Jodi

pimmy

09-07-2001, 08:30 AM

Jodi again. Well I'm back for more advice. It's been over a week with pee-potty for Sarah. Has been great about it. I was concerned when she went back to school, but no problems there, too. Except one. She really hasn't had any signifigant BM's in about a week, a little, excuse me, staining, but nothing really. She askes to go, but other then some gas, but nothing. She cried last night, alot, said, "my belly hurts" so I put the diaper on, (she hasn't worn one for a week), well she almost exploded with such a big BM, and I'm sure it was a relief to her. Took the diaper off when she was finished and has been peeing on the potty. Wakes up dry in the am. So that is under control. Now what, how do I convince her to "let go" with BM's on the potty. The next step is what? Where do I go from here, is it too soon? Thanks again for the in-put, or should I say out-put, silly me I thought that this would be clear sailing...Jodi and Sarah

VMcCormac

09-07-2001, 10:12 AM

Jodi & Sarah: Stay cool! the board maker picture of "poop in the potty" is so very clear of our expectation. My 5 year old "got it" but my 8 year old still INSISTS on a diaper. I've tried the cutting the hole; maybe didn't do it right but what a mess -- and besides he knows. with his little brother going and us insisting he sit for a few minutes at least prior to the diaper that he requests and the pictures and us talking about it seemingly constantly -- surely, I will be able to report someday prior to high school that he too "got it" -- his behavior is just too wierd when he hasn't gone so we are just not willing to withold that diaper and try to "make" him go -- oh, who knows? surely not me.
Patience, Pictures and Perseverance --
Vmc, mom and true believer

pimmy

09-07-2001, 10:30 AM

Thanks for you reply, I did try to cut holes with the pee part along time ago, maybe I'll try that again. I wrote a note to her teacher, she's a great help with this. I'll probably talk to her sometime in the next couple od days to see if I should try that again. Thanks for your reply so quickly. Talk more soon... Jodi

Charmaine Leone

09-09-2001, 07:27 PM

Hi Pimmy,

I also have a 4yo girl with PDD-NOS. I toilet trained her in January of this year (our summer), and she was successful with #1's within 2 weeks. I just put her on the toilet each morning and after each meal, and I had her in underpants, not pullups, as if she had an accident she didn't like the wet feeling in her undies, and all down her legs!
I had the "pee bucket" on hand all the time for accidents - it had an old towel for mopping up, a packet of wipes for cleaning her up, spare undies, etc....
This was quite easy to achieve and I was so proud of her and me! But, I hit the brick wall with #2's....... She wouldn't do #2's unless it was in her night time pullups (which she was still wearing through the night at that time). It seemed that the pullups were the trigger for her to do poo, so I had to take the trigger away..... well, it took almost 2 weeks, of me putting her on the toilet, saying do poo in the toilet, etc. She would just sit there and scream, cry, saying "NO, NO", and I thought I must be the most evil mother! My husband thought I was being cruel, and told me so every opportunity he got!
I was feeding her extra fibre, heaps of water, extra exercise, fruit, vegies, all the usual stuff, still no result! I thought my little girl was going to explode!
Then one night I gave her some Coloxyl drops in a glass of juice. (This is a mild laxative), and it worked!! She actually said to me, "Mummy, poo toilet", and I grabbed her and ran, and suddenly, success! We haven't looked back - and once I took those pullups off her, and just kept her in undies all the time, she even began to stay dry through the night.
We have had no accidents whatsoever - she's done really well.
She still will not go to the toilet independently yet, but does ask to go. I'm sure that will come soon enough.
Hope some of this helps - just remember to be consistent - changing things and expectations, etc just confuses them, and dont put her in pullups at all if you can help it.

Good luck, let me know how it's going...

:p

pimmy

09-17-2001, 09:33 AM

I appreciate you in-put, or should I say out-put(ha, still have a sense of humor), it's been over a week since my last post, Sarah has been great with the pee-part of toileting staying dry, telling me she has to go, and has been dry day and night. Still a problem for the bm's though, still holding them back, I have been breaking down, I don't and I don't want her to get backed up so to speak. I put a diaper on her when she starts to cry(after about three days with no bm's) she'll sit on the toilet and say "no poop today" after trying, so I put the diaper on, then she poop's says "much better now" and "change me, I'm dirty" we both put the poop in the toilet and flush, maybe she's not ready to let that part of her go yet? I don't know what to do, we'll keep trying, I again, know when she does do it, she'll get it, just like the pee-part. Oh, and she does stay in underpants all the time...thanks for listening ....Jodi

Charmaine Leone

09-17-2001, 07:13 PM

Hi Jodi,
Great news!!! She's obviously doing really well.
I know it's really hard to force the issue with the bm's but sometimes you have to "be cruel to be kind". When I was going through this with Nerida earlier in the year, I had the advice and support of 2 of her teachers at her Early Intervention Centre. They were terrific, they would ring me of an evening to check on whether Nerida had done it yet, also to encourage me (as I was SO worried about her being constipated, etc), and just to offer a support base, which I needed, mainly to verify that I was doing the right thing!! They would also check that Nerida hadn't exploded all over the place!! (Joke!)
Seems silly for such a "menial" task as toilet training, doesn't it?
But both Nerida and myself found it quite traumatic and the relief I felt when she was finally successful with the bm's was overwhelming!
I guess I felt toilet training (or lack of), was an area that if she couldn't master it, it would hold her back, especially when going to school. She would be treated differently, and I know that she's going to feel different anyway, but I wanted to minimise that as much as possible.
Well, enough of my rambling! Good luck, and stay in touch to let me know how you're going...
Bye for now,

pimmy

10-31-2001, 07:13 PM

Jodi and Sarah again, I'm sorry to say that with the bm part we have gotten nowhere. We are at a stand still. Pee-part is great. Done, over. That's great. But the bm part, she says at the same time everyday, "Put my diaper on so I can do poop" let me see it in my diaper, she knows she has to go, so I know she knows what the feeling is like, very aware, that way. I have her stand in the bathroom, she will not sit, I think that is the issue. I have been trying to have her stand over her potty with the diaper on, but she won't stand still long enough, just in the bathroom. (The diaper comes off right after) I do have an enforcer, but I guess that it is not strong enough. I'm beginning to think her will is stronger than mine. Any more suggestions? Thanks again...Jodi and Sarah

Charmaine Leone

11-01-2001, 12:04 AM

Hi Jodi,
Get rid of the daipers!!! Dont have them in the house at all!
She's smart! She knows that you will put them on her so she can poop.

With Nerida I just stopped using diapers, full stop. Did not buy any more, and had her in undies full time. She naturally caused a fuss and kept asking for "nappies" [we call diapers nappies in Australia] but I persisted. Ok we had a couple of accidents, that's to be expected, but she got the hang of it in just a few days...

I found that the biggest problem was me! I had to do some "self talk" in order to face this properly and be consistent so that the outcome was successful for Nerida - very hard to do!

Well, good luck, and again, let me know how it's going. Hope this is of some help to you..

:cool:

CeleRate

11-04-2001, 10:35 AM

*Offer lots of liquids throughout the day (one opportunity to pee in a day is too little to teach correct toileting)
*No diapers and no pants on (initially)
*Identify something highly pleasurable for your child that can be provided only for correctly eliminating in the toilet. It should be something that can be delivered extremely quickly (i.e., almost as the first drops hit the toilet water)
*Time off the toilet should be extremely brief (e.g., 5 minutes on, 30 seconds off)
*Multiple practice runs (e.g., 3) are made to the toilet from where an accident occurs. "This is where you should pee."
*Accidents are cleaned by the child (Hand-over-hand) by the adult (recommended, not required).
*Stay close to the bathroom, possibly only in the bathroom when first teaching how to use the toilet. 1000's of children have learned this way. 1000's of parents did not think it would be possible (at first)
*If progress is not being made within the first couple of weeks, then some factor or factors need to be changed. Persisting with an ineffective strategy is too frustrating for everyone involved

LYNN HAID

02-05-2002, 02:16 PM

Hello There,
My son Luke is 5 1/2 years old and diagnosed 2 years ago with High Functioning Autism. I thought I would never train him...he just did not want to, you know? Finally, about 4 months ago...I had had enough and said this is it. He has never had a "pee" accident since. It was truly amazing....I felt like it was all up to me...should I have done this a year or so ago......BUT, the "poop" thing is a whole different situation.......once in a while, he has gotten lucky and it 'just came out'. Any suggestions on how to get him to do this. He will just say 'Mom, change my underwear. I pooped.' Really has no care in the world about it. I've tried bribing, rewarding, etc etc. Any ideas? He will start Kindergarten in the fall and I hate for there to be another reason for people not to be nice to him. Thanks for the interesting posts above. This is great to talk to people going thru the same thing.

VMcCormac

02-06-2002, 08:23 AM

My 5 and 1/2 year old was just trained this summer with the aide of Center for Autism and Related Disabilities personnel just helping us "move into" the bathroom for two days doing mass trials -- he caught on fairly quickly, is quite successful at Kindergarten, but has frequent accidents at home? Now my 8 year old son still requests a ###@@@**** diaper when he needs to go "poop"; would never think of soiling his pants but reacts violently to being asked to sit on the potty when he needs to -- we talk, show pictures; and keep thinking he will get this soon -- we're just not willing to have such an important bodily function be a source of his meltdown (he has too many as it is) right or wrong -- we just keep on keepin on.
Luck and Wisdom from above.
Vmc

LYNN HAID

02-06-2002, 08:54 AM

Thanks for the advice. I have heard other people "moving into" the bathroom. Wow, that takes patience, but we all will do whatever works. Do both of your children have some sort of Autism? I have an older son, Age 7, who I thought Luke would want to follow after, but he really doesn't care if Ryan is going on the potty or not. Now, I also have a 3 year old daughter, Cassie, without a diagnosis, but she has problems with the 'poop' thing also...figure that one out. All I can say is I go thru a lot of wipes and underwear. Frustrated in Pgh

CeleRate

02-06-2002, 09:18 AM

If a program does not work relatively quickly, or if there are too many undesirable side effects, then the program should be changed/modified in some way.
Some folks keep records of when eliminating (a.k.a. peeing or pooping) usually takes place, brings the child to the bathroom just around those times, and attempt to get eliminating to occur in specific locations. Then, through various arrangements, they have the child eliminating in locations that are closer to the toilet, and eventually when on the toilet.
Keep records. If there are not signs of progress in a relatively short period, then do something different. That something different can be based on prefabricated programs, or based on careful manipulation of environmental factors particular to each child (this latter part usually requires that the programmer have adequate training)

mlwear

02-08-2002, 08:19 AM

I guess it is comforting to know that my son isn't the only one who isn't completely potty trained. We have been working hard for quite a while. He finally is getting pretty good with "peeing" in the potty. But, he must be told to go. For anyone reading this having trouble with the peeing part, what finally worked for us was very odd, but worked. We named the toilet "Mr. Potty" and used the lid to make his "mouth" open and close so he could tell my son to use him and he could get a sticker. One sticker for pee--two for poop. A blank paper on the back of the door was used to put the stickers when they were given. He loves to count his stickers. It did not work, however, for BM's. We have taken away diapers and pullups. But, he doesn't care. He will soil his pants and not even mention it. He is very undersensitive to tactile stimuli. I would assume that is why it doesn't bother him. Anyone have advice for this situation?

Cap

02-15-2002, 08:02 PM

Hi Pimmy,

Question....is it possible for you to recognize her body language when she has to do her "big job" *when the diaper is on?* Like just before she goes and maybe set her on the potty?? My thinking is she may not have a choice but to poop in the potty then....

I'm thinking if she has certain body language ie moaning, groaning, straining whatever, maybe you can just set her on the toilet and then see what happens???

Let me know!! Much good luck; I think that God truly picks special people to be parents of autistic children and you certainly sound like one special parent....:-)

Cap

Cap

02-17-2002, 06:28 PM

Hi Jodi,

Another thought I had. When Sarah asks for her diaper to be put on to "do poop", after you do, does she hide somewhere while having her BM or does she stay close-by??

If she has a favorite hiding place, maybe you can get one of those little potty chairs and take it to the hiding place. Perhaps she feels more secure there and maybe she might be willing to try to poo on the potty chair.

Let me know what you think!

Cap

pimmy

02-17-2002, 07:29 PM

No she doesn't have a favorite hiding place and she doesn't like the thought of sitting on her potty, she has been using the regular toilet for her peeing. When she does have to poop, she knows the exact feeling, that's when she asks for her diaper. I do still think its the sitting part, just in the last couple of days, I've got her to sit a couple of times without the diaper for her trying. She'll sit for a few minutes, then she decides she doesn't have to go any longer. About an half hour to an hour later she cries and says she wants that diaper on. I give in, so she doesn't get backed up, so-to-speak. I tell her, "nice trying and good sitting" when she doesn't argue about sitting there for the trying of the "bm" part. She does have a re-inforcer that she cries for, that she wants. She's smart, she knows that when she cries, I'll give in, because I can't take the crying....it is soooo frustrating. Thanks for taking the time to give some suggestions....Jodi

LYNN HAID

02-17-2002, 08:30 PM

Hi Jodi,
I was just reading over some of your posts regarding Sarah. Your situation sounds very similar to mine with my son. Luke (Age 5 ) has been peeing in the potty for months now, but just can't get the BM thing. He does not ask for a diaper, though, he just does it right in the underwear. I am trying to figure out when he goes to make sure I take him to the bathroom, but the schedule is not an exact science. I just can't figure it out???? So far, we've been lucky that this has not happened at school. He saves it for his Mommy....lucky me. Actually, thank God, because I hate for anyone else to have to deal with it. He is a big kid to have to clean, you know. Well, I keep reading and reading these posts hoping to read about a new method I could try.....patience, patience, I guess??? If you figure something new out that works for Sarah, let me know. Thank you and Good Luck!!

pimmy

02-17-2002, 08:58 PM

Well with Sarah and all, she usually has to go her BM almost the same time everyday, within of course a half and hour. She doesn't go at school, she also saves it for me, aren't we the lucky ones....thanks...Jodi

VMcCormac

02-19-2002, 08:49 AM

Goodmorning all:
I had to check to make sure I had not written some of your replys -- they sound just like us -- my 5 year old son who I thought had mastered the poop (he would run, plop himself down, do it, and it was just great!) has now regressed to in his pants, mess, and ignoring it; at least at home, thankfully not at school. Now my 8 almost 9 year old is the diaper boy -- only for poops, would never think of soiling himself; requests a diaper quite nicely ( usually from his daddy because mama is always trying to get him to at least sit and try, etc....); I think alot of his is the position (he stands and leans) I've thought of a walker like object, or table/tray to stand over the potty so he could lean instead of sit; the other aspect tho for him is the feeling of the diaper being tight and his clothes too? I've also thought of maybe putting a lego table over the potty to encourage sitting for a period of time, relaxing and maybe experiencing letting it go; but let's face it -- this is work girls! While trying to do laudry, put up gocercies, and household chores in general -- we have to watch them constantly -- in their rooms, outside -- I know we have eyes in the back of our heads, but now we need electronic sensors throughout the house. So on we go -- I'm going to start back with basics: PICTURE/ROUTINE/SOCIAL STORIES/TIMER/REWARDS -- Yall have inspired me and encouraged me to keep on keepin on. Thanks
Vmc

LYNN HAID

02-19-2002, 08:58 AM

You are right, we all sure are in this together. It does help to know others are going through the same thing. Luke likes Thomas the Train, so maybe I will try to bring a table with the trains in the bathroom. We will go to great lengths to get this to work. Good Luck with your sons and let us know if you get something to work. By the way, I have 2 doing this also....my daughter is only 3 though, so I don't go as crazy with her yet. I'm trying to work on the 5 year old first. You must go through a lot of wipes and underwear in your house, too. Keep smiling!!!

Cap

02-27-2002, 03:48 PM

Hi Jodi,

Just wanted to pop in real quick and see how you were doing with Sarah. Haven't seen anything new for a little bit. Could you give us an update?

Thanks!! Hope things are going well. Everyone's cheering for ya and hope that you and Sarah have total success soon!

Cap

pimmy

03-13-2002, 09:35 PM

Back again, been out of town for a while, so I was off line. Had a death in my family, had to leave and take care of business. Back now, going to wait to try something new with Sarah, next week, she still has a little anxiety about me leaving, so I'll wait. But Sarah's teacher, her thought process is going to try to tell Sarah that she is getting too big for poopy-diaper, we are going to gradually put smaller diapers on her so she actually see's that she is too big. I don't know if that's going to work either, she is a very stubborn little girl, but aren't they all. Thanks for asking, and it feels great to be back...Jodi

Cap

03-13-2002, 10:02 PM

Hi Jodi,

Welcome back and please accept my sympathies. I was sorry to hear about the death in your family.

Well let's hope Sarah's teacher has come up with the winning formula.

Take care and let us know how she does.

Sincerely,

Cap

pimmy

03-20-2002, 11:23 PM

Hi all, it's very late and I'm tired, very long day. Well it was Sarah's 5th birthday today, and usually I'm very emotional about it, but not today, got her to actually poop on her potty all by herself, no diapers, and it was her idea. Make a long story short, we gradually kept putting smaller diapers on her, telling her she was getting too bid for diapers, until they wouldn't fit any longer, she was mad at that. She told me she wasn't a big girl, that "I'm still a baby." Too funny. The last couple of days we've been putting the "too small" diaper on top of her potty, not the regular toilet that she uses for peeing, so she could still sit on top of it. To still have that feeling. This afternoon, she was squirming, said she had to go, put the diaper on top once again, she soiled it, I took it off and threw it away, she said she was a "big girl now," it must have clicked. About an hour later she asked to go to poop on her potty. This time I didn't put the diaper on, she just went. Enough rambling, I'm very happy and exhausted at the same time, we'll see what tomorrow brings us...thanks for being here.....Jodi

LYNN HAID

03-21-2002, 09:47 AM

:) I am so excited to hear about Sarah. Well that was sure a nice way to celebrate her birthday. HAPPY BIRTHDAY SARAH ( A BIG GIRL NOW). That is great, something you are doing is working and it must feel so good. I really do think that something just eventually 'clicks'...with the potty or whatever it is that they struggle to do. Luke just wrote his name for the first time this week at school and that was so thrilling for me. I do think he just did not WANT to do it until now. Who knows? Well I just wanted to congratulate you and good luck. Keep us posted!!!
Love Lynn

pimmy

03-21-2002, 09:53 AM

Thanks Lynn, well I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch, so I'll keep ypu posted. It sure isn't easy, but there are great rewards in the long run. And no one else "get's it" unless youv'e been there yourself....congrads on the hand writing, every accomplishment is a big one....Jodi

Cap

03-22-2002, 06:57 PM

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!

Roses are red
Violets are blue
Sarah seems to have "gotten it"
MANY CONGRATS to you!!!!

Yeah I know that sounds about corny but I am so happy for you and Sarah!!

Happy birthday to her!! BIG GIRL!! YAY!!!!!

A Cyber Hug For Both,

((((((((((((JODI AND SARAH)))))))))))))))

Cap

P.S. And CONGRATS to Luke who also hit a milestone, writing his name!! YAY!!!!!!!! Cool!! :-)

pimmy

03-22-2002, 10:12 PM

Hi CAP, thanks sooo much, your are the best. It's not quite over yet. Still have to work out a few kinks, hopefully, like with peeing, it will take a few days. At the time with the peeing thing, I thought that was hard, but this, oh my goodness. It will be worth it in the end...big time. Thanks for all the encouragement...Jodi

Vaness

03-28-2002, 07:26 AM

Hi Jodi, my name's Vanessa, I can sympathise with you only that my son, A.J.(he was diagnosed with PDD) who's 7 is still, being potty trained. It's hard, very hard on your nerves. He does the same thing, he'll stay dry for a very long time, getting him on the toilet takes bribary, lots of it, and will not stand. If you say your daughter is stubborn, you haven't met this guy. I have a daughter Sarah too, but she's typically developing. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, don't let anyone tell you that they think it's time she gets toilet trained, she'll get it in her own time. You'll go crazy if you try to train her to please other people, I know, I've been there. Now I tell them, "hey, mind your own business unless you have or are now raising a child in the autistic spectrum". Take it easy and take it one step at a time. Just remember, if i makes you feel anybetter just knowing this, my son's 7 and he's still not trained. I wish you luck.

Dave

03-28-2002, 10:38 AM

If it's any consolation, my son is seven and still not potty trained. We have tried many different things at home, he is just not interested in it. What I have been able to do is train him to do things at certain times. Like for instance he has a bowl movement every morning after he eats, I strip him and usually he will go to the batroom in the hall by the kitchen. I have to stay close, but he does his business in the pot and I only have to wipe him. The trick I have found in true potty training is something the kid has to have, the desire to use the toilet instead of doing it in their pants. My son can stay dry, you just have to take him to the toilet every thirty minutes. We have tried everything I can think of such as prized treats, bathroom games, but the connection just isn't there yet. About once every month it's like a switch will come on though, he'll go all by himself. We are still working on it though, I don't want to be changing diapers into his teens that's for sure.

Jody Hansen

03-28-2002, 04:52 PM

David Andrews

06-12-2004, 10:28 PM

Hi. I haven't read all the replies regarding this issue, but thought I'd post what worked for me. Forgive if it is redundant.

We tried everything. Potty Parties, video, books, social stories, cutting holes in the diapers, etc. No success for about a year. Finally during the Christmas break we decided we would take him to the potty every 15 minutes and leave him naked all day. Finally due to randomness we had a couple of sucessess. Lots and lots of accidents #1 & #2 on the white carpeting. It took about five days of doing this consistently before he got the gist. Then from that day on...he asks to use the bathroom. Since December we've maybe had 2 accidents. Our son was just over five when we accomplished the toilet training. It was exhausting, but worth it.
best,
jody hansen

I have seen behaviourism-based regimens for toilet training and to be honest, I've always found them laughable: "make notes", "make charts", planning it all and the like... how much time do these folk think parents actually have? I know professionals expected to do ABC charts and the amount of time taken to deal with that is just not worth the hassle it causes to have to do it just for one thing like "the kid doesn't crap in the bog". Really.. ;)

This is actually a better way since it introduces the child to the fact that there's usually a serious mess and there's something there that s/he can "go" on... and put the mess where it belongs. Well done, Jody.... :D

David Andrews

06-12-2004, 10:32 PM

That's the Bobby Newman approach.

He's considered a bit stupid even by behaviourists, so I hear!

That is a hard algorithm to do when you're dealing with most autistic kids. Even mine wouldn't be amenable to that regimen.

Behaviourist approaches are not really that good, and Vygotskyan-Lewinian ones usually work better, and with less hassle.

Sorry. Just my two Euro-cents' worth.

As a professional in this sort of thing.

;)

*Offer lots of liquids throughout the day (one opportunity to pee in a day is too little to teach correct toileting)
*No diapers and no pants on (initially)
*Identify something highly pleasurable for your child that can be provided only for correctly eliminating in the toilet. It should be something that can be delivered extremely quickly (i.e., almost as the first drops hit the toilet water)
*Time off the toilet should be extremely brief (e.g., 5 minutes on, 30 seconds off)
*Multiple practice runs (e.g., 3) are made to the toilet from where an accident occurs. "This is where you should pee."
*Accidents are cleaned by the child (Hand-over-hand) by the adult (recommended, not required).
*Stay close to the bathroom, possibly only in the bathroom when first teaching how to use the toilet. 1000's of children have learned this way. 1000's of parents did not think it would be possible (at first)
*If progress is not being made within the first couple of weeks, then some factor or factors need to be changed. Persisting with an ineffective strategy is too frustrating for everyone involved

rCARBEE

06-12-2004, 11:27 PM

Hey everyone....it is so nice to be back. I miss all my old friends. I think Mikey is officially potty trianed also. He has been dry now for over 2 1/2 weeks and is even keeping dry at night. Whooo hooo! (now we will have to see how he does on a trip :cool: )

Happy Birthday Sarah and congrats to you too.

CarerQuie

06-13-2004, 04:30 AM

I've come late to this thread.Rhodri didn't understand that he had to pull his clothes down to use the toilet.When he was naked,he never had an "accident",when he was clothed,he did.Once I'd taken him to the toilet and showed/told him,he was fine.

Nightime is still a work in progress.

Kris.

CeleRate

06-20-2004, 07:26 PM

Deester

06-21-2004, 09:14 AM

Whe should create an Autism Talk Potty Book.

Look at all this great advise! I've been working on this too. My daughter dosesn't hold in BM's just sometimes we catch them and other times not. She is starting to do her BM's a bit more on the potty so it's starting.

Great Ideas!!

Denise

David Andrews

06-21-2004, 09:47 AM

Euro-cents or Turkish Lira? Ad hominem attacks are evidence of weakness in one's thinking. If you are going to be so bold as to claim some sort of professional status to support your position, then it is suggested that you behave like a professional. You can begin by referencing some peer-reviewed research to support your assertions.

Okay, I have a few, but I can get more from the person supervising me.

As for ad hominem, well.... I understand FROM BEHAVIOURISTS that what I said of Newman is true.

But look at the idea of encouraging a kid to drink all the time so as to potty train it.... that, if the potty-training is slow for some reason linked to a medical cause, will put the kid under more distress.

Do behaviourists actually think about kids' distress? Because there is a lot of evidence coming to light suggesting that they don't. Newspapers, true, but it is there, and some of these things coming up are not good.

Let me find the quotes, and I'll show you some.

By the way: is it your policy to defend to the hilt studies which have hitherto been shown to be rather flawed, to say the least?

CeleRate

06-21-2004, 02:21 PM

Okay, I have a few, but I can get more from the person supervising me.

You have to run to your supervisor to back up statements that YOU made?

As for ad hominem, well.... I understand FROM BEHAVIOURISTS that what I said of Newman is true.

David, I simply cannot understand how you could think that anyone else’s alleged bad behavior would excuse yours. If you have an issue with the content of a message, then please, take my advice—address the content without attacking the person.

But look at the idea of encouraging a kid to drink all the time so as to potty train it.... that, if the potty-training is slow for some reason linked to a medical cause, will put the kid under more distress.

First, a child is not an “it;” a child is a person. Second, your point is quite valid. Before undertaking any approach, one should rule out medical issues. Parenthetically, the literature on this topic states that medical issues that preclude learning continence are rare (Please see Foxx and Azrin).

Do behaviourists actually think about kids' distress?

This is either rhetorical or an incredibly naïve question; as if a person self-identifying with a philosophy would therefore lack common sense. This should not even be dignified with a response...next.

Because there is a lot of evidence coming to light suggesting that they don't. Newspapers, true, but it is there, and some of these things coming up are not good.

This is a preposterous statement of an ad hominem nature.

Let me find the quotes, and I'll show you some.

Quotes??? You want to support your position with something someone said??? I sincerely hope you are joking.

By the way: is it your policy to defend to the hilt studies which have hitherto been shown to be rather flawed, to say the least?

At a minimum, this is a fallacy of interrogation, and is therefore, meaningless.
David, if you have any interest in being a support here, then what you should have done was to say that you had a concern about the procedures being recommended. If you felt that the data collection methods described were too rigorous, or that there are some caveats with respect to treatment variables to be mindful of, then those would have been fair statements and they could have started a conversation. What you did, however, was to single out an individual who you do not know and call him “stupid.” This is not only distasteful, but is not going to advance anyone’s understanding on the important issue that was being discussed. And I would like to believe that you are here to share your knowledge and experiences on topics related to autism. So I hope that you will reflect what has been said here and modify your dialogue going forward.

David Andrews

06-21-2004, 02:38 PM

What you did, however, was to single out an individual who you do not know and call him “stupid.”

Actually, I don't think I did.

He's considered a bit stupid even by behaviourists, so I hear!

No. I didn't. I said that he had been "considered stupid".

Big difference.

Learn to read and I'll continue to discuss things with you.

David Andrews

06-21-2004, 02:42 PM

You have to run to your supervisor to back up statements that YOU made?

No.

I just think that she may have better references for these than the ones I have: her PhD was on early childhood intervention, and her opinion on behaviourism-based options in this area is not encouraging regarding such methods.

For those who are spotting fallacies here: fallacy of interrogation, maybe?

David Andrews

06-21-2004, 02:45 PM

David, I simply cannot understand how you could think that anyone else’s alleged bad behavior would excuse yours. If you have an issue with the content of a message, then please, take my advice—address the content without attacking the person.

I didn't attack the person. Another behaviourist attacked him! Elsewhere.

And since you decided to attack me in your response to my post: try "two wrongs fallacy".... take your own advice too.

David Andrews

06-21-2004, 02:48 PM

First, a child is not an “it;” a child is a person. Second, your point is quite valid. Before undertaking any approach, one should rule out medical issues. Parenthetically, the literature on this topic states that medical issues that preclude learning continence are rare (Please see Foxx and Azrin).

First: I live in Finland. I live in Finnish most of my time, when not in the house. We don't have a separate word for HIM and HER. We say HÄN, which is literally a "human it" (as opposed to the SE, which is the "non-human it").

Yes. I find it good that we agree on the medical issues. They may be rare, but they happen.